Actually that was just a 3 judge panel that made the ruling.... The next step is for the People of California to appeal to the full panel of the Court of appeals...Then if the People of California lose that appeal then the People of California will appeal to the Supreme Court.... I think instead of going to the Courts to overturn the will of the people.... The Gay community should keep trying to Change public opinion in there favor.... I'm very conservative but I am open to giving Gays the same rights that everybody has under are constitution.... My only issue is whether it should be called a CIVAL UNION or a Marriage? *People like me are for the first time at least considering the word Marriage..... However when a Court steps in and overrides the will of the People it definatly hurts your cause more then helps it... IMHO
What I don't understand is why people have a problem with the term "marriage". You're perfectly fine with gays having equal rights, in terms of taxes, jobs, legal purposes. But you'd want to term it a "civil union" and not a "marriage"? Why?
I do agree that such judicial intervention can hurt the cause, though. That's very true. Still, if the "majority" goes against certain groups of people, we do need our courts to protect our rights.
No matter what a court says the final say in this matter is in the hands of the people... When I was growing up in the Sixties even liberals were reluctant even to talk about homosexuality... Now here you are discussing Gay Marriage with a conservative... And I do have a very open mind for your plight... So I would say the ball is rolling in the right direction... Really my main point was just to say that this decision today hurts the cause of Gay rights more then helps it... But if it makes you feel better because the American people are very fair and understand that Gays feel like their being discriminated against.... I can see this issue being decided in your favor within the next 10 years.....Not through the Courts but through public opinion!!
Marriage is a religeous word that found its way into the law. I don't care about marriage but I do care about equal rights. We should ban the word marriage from the law and replace it with civil union! That would give all people equal rights. I am a conservative and believe that religion and the government need to be separate..
If "civil unions" had been adopted years ago, without controversy, I feel there's a chance they might have been a fair resolution of the issue (as happened in some countries). However, I think it's probably too late now to regard them as an acceptable resolution - the opponents of same-sex unions have driven the issue to such a polarizing point, that having two names would inevitably be seen as setting up "approved, higher status" marriage for mixed-sex couples, and "concessionary, lower status" unions for same-sex couples. Many in the Gay and Lesbian communities would feel they were still being discriminated against, and offered a second class solution.
I'd draw the analogy with the last days of segregation, before LBJ's reforms. "Separate but equal" was preferable to racial supremacism - but it was still discriminatory. Most public opinion today accepts that it was necessary for "separate but equal" treatment to be struck down.
That said, I know that many Conservatives already agree, or are moving towards greater acceptance on this issue - I know it's a difficult transition for some to make, and I respect their sincerity.
Even if it sounds idealistic, though, what I'd hope for is that we could move to a position where we actually stopped thinking of it as "your cause" and thought of it as something that was a basic human cause - and, as such, one that is the cause of all of us. In something as important as love, life companionship and the respect of our fellows, I don't want to have special privileges that are denied to my brothers and sisters of different sexualities. I think that demeans us all - the majority whose status is accepted, as well as the minority who are excluded. Human rights should be the heritage of all of us - and I think that was the point the original poster of the thread was making.
Humanity is such that we cannot truly be content when we know there are others who are discontent. I firmly believe that men who oppress women in some parts of the world today are just as unhappy and sad as the woman they torment.
It is not the struggle for "just the gays" any more than Black Emancipation was "just for the blacks". It is for a better world, and a better life, for EVERYONE.
My real attitude is that we all have opinions about right and wrong and we always will and there is no point in arguing against one another.
But to suggest one has a right that another does not, does not work for the purpose of a free society.
I may be against the idea of Elvis impersonators marrying drunk people at midnight in vegas but I certainly will not stand against them. It is not my right!!
(Ironic, don't you think that I actually believe in the institution of marraige but I am forbid to enter into it).
It brings me back to the film: Many black domestics loved the families they were working for and the families loved them equally. But because of laws and ideas that were being held by society as a whole this love was to be kept quiet and not to be expressed or there would literally be "inprisonment".
You or I may not like the idea of same sex couples having the same type of love that you or I do. But guess what, They DO! They are human. They love. We all love. And we are all raised to believe and understand the value of a partnership for life. It is as important to the gay community as any other community. I firmly believe in coupling. To raise children and for many many other civil reasons We are all equal in the eyes of god and under the laws of this country.
But to speak of the decission that was made. It is very important to understand that Prop.8 had to happen in the first place for true freedom to actually be born of it.
Ironic isn't it.
The very thing people thought would stop Gay rights will actually propell it forward. For now there is president for courts to make decissions based on.
Thanks Marriage-Supporters. You got us on the Map!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now it's only a matter of time till justice once again trumps personal ideology.
And Russ, you know I love and respect you greatly. But imagine what would have happened to the rights of so many oppressed if it was left to mass societal opinion.
People don't like to say yes to anything that does not effect them.
They will simply say no in order to keep themselves unchanged.
You all make great points and reading your thread I've learned something and have become a better person because of it... Let me leave this thread with this thought..... Many years ago when I found out someone was gay I was surprised because they didn't fit the stereotype that society had ingrained in me.... Now when someone tells me their Gay it doesn't change anything in how I relate or deal with them... I've had many Gay employees over the years and one thing that I've noticed is they are just people... Some are good some are bad one I actually just sold a major interest in my business to... And he happens to be one of my best friends in the world....
LIVE AND LET LIVE..... PEACE OUT
That person is not religious? So what, he's probably still one of the nicest people in the world. That person is Muslim? He's probably one of the most peaceful people in the world.
You find out that person A is a gay? That's all you should conclude about person A. He could be smart, stupid, violent, loving, funny, dull, well-mannered or a complete loser. You never know.
There are fat gays, thin gays, smart gays, angry gays, noisy gays, funny gays, rich gays, poor gays, nice gays and jerk gays. Just like all of us.
If someone says "Hi, I'm gay", all that implies is that he likes people of the same sex. Apart from that, you know nothing about him, and he's probably just like you, or very different from you.
When there comes a day where questions like "when did you find out you were gay?" or "how do you know you're gay?" become obsolete, our job is complete. Questions like this imply that homosexuality is something different that needs to be examined. In reality everyone is different. I don't ask people, "when did you find out you were straight?"
I know this sort of veers from the discussion, but my point is... equality is a cause worth fighting for, but ideologies come in to play in all aspects, race, class, gender, and sexual orientation. Until everyone on this Earth recognizes that we're all different but equal, there will always be inequalities. The simple terms; race, class, gender, and sexual orientation imply inequality in that they have to be defined and examined separately with false and misleading knowledge gathered and forced into the minds of people from generations before.
So we can fight for "same sex marriage" and all that, but the real problem is much deeper, something embedded in our culture. You can't bring about equality for all without examining all the difference between people and getting over the fact that there are differences.
I don't know if I was clear in saying this, but I think I make sense. My point is, marriage won't bring about equality. It'll just be a very tiny step. Equality is still very far off for women, blacks, etc... never mind GLBT. There is such a negative stigma around each one that until the stigma is done with, there will always be inequality. Negative, but true...
I think what everyone is saying is awesome.
I think, for the time being, it would be the best idea to get support from the court systems, and then that will eventually start to sway public opinions and attitudes.
I may not see in my lifetime, but I definitely believe that one day gays will have the same marriage rights as straights. And as far as the stereotypical stuff, what carebear4eva was saying, yeah there are a lot of stereotypes out there about gays, and i have to say that I certainly don't fit into many of those! I'm quiet, don't do too much "partying", and I absolutely cannot dance! Lol, I hate dancing.
But yeah, there are tons of different gays, and we aren't any different from heterosexuals. Sexuality does not make you who you are, it's just a small part of your overall personality, and i wish people would see that.
Usually the only reason people disagree is because they don't understand. Intolerance comes from ignorance, and if these super conservative protesters could see that we're just like them, it would help matters. But I definitely don't think the best way to win the war is to go around, yelling horrible things, and holding up signs in mob crowds, lol. The best way to approach these kinds of things is by sitting down and getting to know people and their reasons for wanting to marry.
And, this "discrimination" is just like any sort of discrimination seen throughout history. African Americans were suppressed for the longest time, and evetually they won equal rights, so I have all faith that eventually we will too.
The stories of MLK and Mandela are no different.
A group of people can be oppressed for long, LONG periods of time. Then, there will ultimately come a point when a spark is aroused, and that signals the end of the oppression. The brilliance of Mahatma Gandhi, and MLK Jr. and Mandela and so on is that there was nothing forceful about their approach to acquire freedom. They simply point out the unfairness, and continue to repeat that until everyone understands it - the oppressed, the oppressors, EVERYONE. By the end of the Indian Independence Movement, half of London wanted the British Empire to pull out of India, and Gandhi himself acquired a strong English following in India. With Black Emancipation, the victory was won not by force, but by pointing out the obvious to the non-African Americans.
I believe we are at that point in the movement for gay rights. It makes me extremely happy that the most conservative of people are today saying "After all, why shouldn't gays have equal rights?". THAT is the surest sign that we are on the right track.
Again, this is not just a war to marry. That is only a very small aspect of this struggle. This is a struggle to ensure that there will come a time when a son telling his parents "Mommy, I'm gay" is met with the same response that "Mommy, I want to be an astronaut" would be met. This is a struggle to ensure that one day when "And, are you gay?" would be as relevant a question in a job interview as "And, are you a Pisces?". This is a struggle to ensure that a man can say "I am running for the Presidency of The United States, and yes, if it is in any way relevant, I am gay."
We are moving in the right direction, though. My own nation of India "decriminalised" homosexuality only in 2008 (we had an ancient sodomy law that we inherited from the British Empire), and yet the first lesbian marriage was performed in an extremely orthodox village recently (the laws of India don't in any way specify that when you register for a marriage licence you need a "husband" and a "wife", so gay marriage is THEORETICALLY legal in India, although it's still completely unthinkable). There are still parts of the world where being gay deserves the death penalty.
On the whole, though, "WE'RE ON THE RIGHT TRACK, BABY, WE WERE BORN THIS WAY".
I agree gays should have their equal rights but dont confuse it will special privlidges. Blacks took equal rights and now completely abusing it and constantly pulling the race card when there is no racial discrimination. Just b/c a gay gets beat up by others doesnt ALWAYS mean its gay hate. It really is case by case. Gay activists seem to think its ALWAYS gay hate. This is flawed and divisive thinking. That said, gays tend to be the most closed minded and bigoted folks out there. TRUST me...i know........if you're following me here. Take a look at all the divisive homos throwing glitter on political candidates. Try doing this to a gay person and gay activists would cry gay hate. My point here is, equal rights YES, special treament NO,rational gays YES,irrational victim minded gays NO.
Right, and broker03, I know you tend to say stuff that is sometimes a bit strong-minded and you don't really care what people think, and I agree with you there.
But, there are actually lots of gays who are not "victim-minded." Most of us are just quiet people trying to make it the same as everyone else. Me, for example - I don't want pity or sympathy from someone because I'm gay. I just want to be treated equally and with the same amount of respect as a straight person, and for the most part, we are treated with the same dignity. And that's all I ask for - understanding.
I do agree with you though, that sometimes gay activists take it a little too far, but that's the same with any organization, PETA for example. But there are lots of sterotypes out there about us, as mentioned, and sometimes when these "out and proud" gays run their mouths and say something hurtful or rude about a straight politician and their policies, then sometimes that puts a bad light on us. Unfortunately there are stereotypes out there about every race, sex, orientation, etc.
That's sadly just how humans are. I'm not saying I'm perfect; but I try to be open-minded about everything.